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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 13, 2011 9:14:25 GMT -5
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Post by theforty on Apr 14, 2011 6:13:48 GMT -5
I disagreed with what I think is the underlying premise of the article, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first.
Then it hit me - if this article were about a baseball team, it would be about the Yankees, and how their fan is a special breed of fan. They might be special breed of fan, but I don't think they are for the reasons cited: e.g. somehow more committed or invested or even have more to lose than fans of other teams.
At the end of the day, I'd suggest it is easier to far easier to be the fan of a perennial contender than the fan of an also ran, even if it means play-off games are more stressful and play-off loses more painful. Well, it is at least easier for me.
It was far harder and far more painful for me to be a fan of the 43-119 Tigers or the 0-16 Lions or this year's version of the Pistons than the 1995 Red Wings who were swept in the Finals by the Devils. I'll take a painful play-off exist every day of the week and twice on Sunday over being irrelevent, and I'd take being irrelevent (but at least being somewhat competent) over being laughably bad.
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Post by harlem on Apr 14, 2011 10:09:29 GMT -5
I think theforty hit it on the head. It's all well and good and a sense of pride when you are on the inside.
I laugh when I see all these baseball purists on ESPN and MLB network (and Ken Burns, while I am at it) wax on and on about how great the game was from 1946-1960. The Golden Age of baseball, when it was at its best. Sure, if you lived in New York City. 13 other franchises have fans that will tell you otherwise. Same goes with the Red Wings. Stanley is a birthright now? Get over yourself.
Stanley Cup playoffs are starting?
Hmmm.. what else is on TV?
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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 14, 2011 11:06:21 GMT -5
This is a Red Wings blog. A hard-core Red Wings blog. That has plenty of trolls and plenty of interactions and running feuds with "die-hards" from other teams. And journalists, too.
I hate the Red Wings=Yankees premise (not just your comments, but the annoying and illogical "Wings buy their cups" argument that's been around for 15 years). Especially in the salary cap era.
The bitterness I have as a Wings fan (and towards the NHL in general) stems from the incredibly arbitrary rules and decisions made by the league, which time and time again do not help The Wings. And that manifests itself into arrogance towards how good our franchise really is.
I absolutely think there is a reason for pride and arrogance for the Wings fan base. When the Wings fans take over just about every opposing arena in the Western Conference in the US. When we have had a constant winner through having a Program, not from tanking for five straight years and being a joke to get multiple top 5 picks (see: Pittsburgh and Chicago and Quebec/Colorado).
And the other thing that's a big stressor is knowing that the Playoff seeding means very little in hockey. It's really not a huge deal if the #8 or #7 seed knocks off the #1 or #2 seed. But it is pretty rare in the NBA. (I know that baseball is a crapshoot in the playoffs, too, and somewhat in the NFL nowadays, although, home field still matters).
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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 14, 2011 11:07:50 GMT -5
...and yeah, I'll take a 4-2 win in game 1, but we sure as hell did not play 60 minutes last night.
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Post by harlem on Apr 14, 2011 11:26:17 GMT -5
I hate the Red Wings=Yankees premise (not just your comments, but the annoying and illogical "Wings buy their cups" argument that's been around for 15 years). Especially in the salary cap era. That may be how others make their comparisons, but I do not make that argument based on "buying" their teams. I make that argument based on the fact that an overwhelming dominance by one franchise ruins the sport. The Atlanta Braves dominance in the NL East for 14 years removed 4-5 teams from having anything more than a passing interest in the franchise. Same with what the Celtics did to the NBA in the 60's, the Yankees did to the American League from 1949-1964, and the Red Wings have done with the NHL. The Wings fans take over the arenas of other teams in the West because the other fans just don't care about their hockey team. Why should they? They are either newcomers who do not understand the game, or they are just not willing to pay to watch their mediocre teams getting beaten by a much superior foe. If the blogger wants to use that as an argument on who's the better fan, go right ahead. I do not dispute that. My only claim is that a powerhouse dynasty is the worst thing that can happen to a league as a whole. Without a more level competition, the fans of the also-rans find other things to do (which admittedly is harder to gage in the NHL, for the ruling body there has found dozens of reasons to run fans off, including yours truly). The NFL understood that, and their system embraces parity. You may not like 8-8 teams making the NFC championship game, or even the SuperBowl, but it sure helps the NFL in general when 80% of the teams have meaningful games to play in week 14. The NFL understands that philosophy, and I am sure that in no small way is a factor in why the NFL is the most popular spectator sport in the US. |
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Post by theforty on Apr 14, 2011 13:12:07 GMT -5
My comments WRT the Yankees deal solely with the idea that this article was written about fan bases, and the most comparible fan base currently (from a perennial contender standpoint) to the Red Wings is the Yankees (or possibly the Lakers, thinking about it a bit more).
I'm sorry, I simply don't buy any nonsense that suggests a Yankees fan or a Lakers fan or a Red Wings fan somehow has more skin in the game as a fan because they expect their team to win a championship, and are therefore more disappointed if it doesn't come to pass. And having gone to Spring Training after the 2003 season and had Yankee fans heckle / talk down to me condescendingly solely for wearing a Tigers hat when I was in line to buy tickets, well, let's just say I think I have a good idea what other NHL teams' fans would think of that article.
As to some of the other issues Cliff's Notes raises, I think the NHL is poorly run in general, and is (perhaps not surprisingly) poorly officiated. I don't think the league is out to get the Wings or any such thing. I suspect the Wings have been hurt as much as any team by poor officiating, but I think that is because they have been in more big games than any other NHL team to be hurt by said bad calls, and those type of games get the most visability. Nobody complains too loudly when there is a bad call in February between two teams out of the play-off chase.
Lastly, I didn't raise the issue before because I didn't want it to detract from my key critique, but the article is written in what I view to be a condescending and confrontational tone, and I found it off-putting. I am a fan of the Red Wings. I like to believe I understand the sport of hockey reasonably well. But if being a true fan of the Red Wings means sounding like a douche bag blow hard, then I guess I have no interest in being a true fan of the Red Wings.
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Post by harlem on Apr 14, 2011 19:57:30 GMT -5
I should probably clarify my position as a Red Wings fan, before my words are taken in the wrong context. I was a huge Wings fan from 1979 to some time in the mid 90's. Then my interest began to wane, although I did enjoy the party atmosphere around town. I just began to find the game slower and more boring, especially in the playoffs. Then, then NHL changed the names of the divisions, moved Canadian teams to more commercial-oriented markets, started awarding points if you managed to not get outscored for 60 minutes... and lost major media coverage. Win or lose, it does nothing for me personally. But if it makes my city happy and wealthier, then Go Wings. To me, hockey is similar to baseball in that it has a long rich history full of colorful characters and stories. But unlike baseball, where I think the quality of play today is the best it has ever been, hockey is the worst since before 99 came on the scene. (I'm talking about Gretzky, not Barbara Feldon). I'd rather watch an episode of "Hoarders" than an NHL hockey game.
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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 15, 2011 9:29:03 GMT -5
Excellent points, gentlemen. But I want to make sure we're having the same argument.
I agree that an "overwhelming" dominance by one franchise is not good. But it's very generous to compare the Red Wings of the last 15 years with the other dynasties you mentioned.
In 15 years, the Wings have 8 Conference Finals Appearances, 6 Conference Titles, and 4 Stanley Cup Championships. I think that's probably closer to the run that Duke has had over the last 20 years, or perhaps the Patriots and Steelers levels of success over the last decade. Also in that time, two other NHL franchises have won multiple titles. Furthermore, the Wings success has not kept other teams in their division from reaching the postseason.
16 teams make the playoffs, not 8 (or 4, back when the Braves started their run).
In comparing the NFL and NHL, Yes, I agree that the NFL is the best run league. By far. To the NHL's credit, they have tried to level the playing field with the salary cap, amongst other things. There were only 6 or 7 "sellers" at the trade deadline, so yeah, about 80% of the league were playing meaningful games.
That being said, the NFL is in a very unique position, that cannot be replicated in other leagues. Ticket revenue is not the driving economic force, and "local" TV basically doesn't exist. This is why Green Bay and Kansas City and Tampa Bay can compete with New York in football, but Milwaukee and Kansas City and Tampa Bay cannot realistically compete long term with New York in baseball.
Yes. Agree. But. I read it as more skin in the game not because of the expectations, but because of the time invested and the heartbreak we've had. There is a reason that the Red Wings blogosphere and fans have been given the nickname of "Tin Foil Hat Society", because of the constant screwjobs, inconsistancy, blatant disregard of rules, and of course, injuries, that the Wings have endured.
I firmly believe that the 08-09 Red Wings were screwed out of the Cup by an interfering NHL, and some (repeated) horrible officiating. In the 06-07 Conference Finals, I'm ill from remembering a terrible missed call on a hook that directly led to the de facto series winning goal by Anaheim. As well as the Wings losing our #2 and #3 defensemen to injury in the series. And there are others. It doesn't matter how many times you win; you remember vividly the times you've lost. That Pain is why we have more skin in the game. The investment from staying up to watch the 10:30 starts on Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday nights is why we have more skin in the game. The Road Trips and traveling to other cities to see games is why we have more skin in the game.
There are certain fanbases we dislike more than others, and there's going to be assholes everywhere. But I don't think the Red Wings fanbase acts as arrogantly as the standard Yankee fan (or Laker fan, or Walmart Wolverine). St Louis, Chicago, and Colorado are just so bitter and infantile that there will never be a kind word said towards them. Pittsburgh is todays big rival, and we actually don't hate Phoenix, although playing a team twice in a row can develop that hatred. Wings fans openly stated last year that if we weren't playing Phoenix, we'd probably be rooting for them. (And when I say "We" or "Wings fans", I'm basing this off of the 5 or 6 NHL and Red Wings blogs that I read regularly)
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Post by pathasst on Apr 15, 2011 13:27:59 GMT -5
You do realize that Baseball season started?
Is there not a provision in the Constitution of the United States of America which mandates the termination of all communication regarding men ice skating, chasing some type of geographic cylinder, "EY"
For Christ's Sake, Phil Coke pitched seven shut out innings last night, now that is something to talk about!!!!!!!!!
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Post by theforty on Apr 15, 2011 22:30:40 GMT -5
Yes. Agree. But. I read it as more skin in the game not because of the expectations, but because of the time invested and the heartbreak we've had. Every fanbase invests time and heartache. Doesn't make Red Wings fans special. Every other fanbase would trade their team's success for the Red Wings, even with all of the supposed heartache that goes with it. |
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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 18, 2011 7:14:31 GMT -5
Every fanbase invests time and heartache. Doesn't make Red Wings fans special. Yes. Yes it does. There are certainly some enormous degrees of heartache that some fanbases have lived through. A Red Sox fan after 1986; a Cleveland Browns fan after The Drive, The Fumble, and losing their team; a Buffalo Sabre fan after Brett Hull was in the crease; a Buffalo Bill fan after the early 90's, a Pistons fan after The Steal, Vinnie and AD knocking heads, followed the next year by Isiah's mangled twisted ankle and Bill Laimbeer's phantom foul on Kareem; the Sacramento Kings fans after Game 6 in 2002 against the Lakers (and they are about to lose their team, too). The Toronto Maple Leafs fans after Kerry Fraser. And, I've already mentioned the Wings. Now compare this to the Colorado Avalanche. Quebec's owner runs the team into the ground, makes the franchise a joke, screws up the Eric Lindros draft pick, screws up the Eric Lindros trade, and is bailed out by the Flyers giving up way too much for Lindros, and combined with three straight #1 overall draft picks, he sells the team, it moves to Colorado, and in their FIRST SEASON as the Colorado Avalanche, they win the Stanley Cup. After, of course, Denver couldn't support an NHL team their first time around, and the Rockies moved to Jersey. So yeah, I don't see how an Av fan has any skin in the game compared to any other NHL franchise. And the heartache of certain fanbases, yeah, I do think there's a certain level of investment. And I'm not including mismanagement of a franchise in here (See: Lions, Clippers). As for investing time... Hockey is still a bit of a cult sport. In 2011, I am STILL hearing complaints from Wings fans across the nation about having problems finding the Wings on TV (Pay for Center Ice, but have the game blacked out because it's being shown on Versus). I don't think that Tigers fans or Lions fans have that problem. By the same token, I follow US Soccer. That's my badge of investing time. I've woken up at 1:30 am, 3:30 am, and 5:30 am to watch my soccer team live in the World Cup. I've watched them on Spanish speaking channels (which, in retrospect, is the preferred way of viewing them) because that's the only channel that would carry some of their qualifying games. Or had to find a bar that would carry the game. The US Soccer fans are certainly a cult, but in this one aspect, I absolutely have an investment in the team and more skin in the game than an NFL fan, and one that can't possibly be matched, (unless the fan is overseas). The NHL certainly has an agenda. They use the Wings (and Leafs and Rangers and Flyers and Bruins and Habs) to prop up other franchises. Gary Bettman has an investment and a legacy at stake regarding keeping Phoenix viable. He will do whatever it takes to keep Chicago interested in the NHL, and he will prop up Pittsburgh as long as Sidney Crosby is skating. And the Capitals, to a certain extent, too. Between the heartache and the time investment, the thread is pretty clear. Officiating and league involvement screwing with the NBA and NHL a hell of a lot more than in the NFL or MLB, and furthermore, access to the team is more difficult in the NHL than in the NBA. The NHL has certainly interfered and made it more difficult on the Wings with their meddling agenda. Suck it Gary. Keep taking advantage of our fanbase. We're going to bury you in a shower of octopi when you are handing Nick another Stanley Cup. |
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Post by theforty on Apr 18, 2011 9:27:34 GMT -5
Every fanbase invests time and heartache. Doesn't make Red Wings fans special. Yes. Yes it does. There are certainly some enormous degrees of heartache that some fanbases have lived through. A Red Sox fan after 1986; a Cleveland Browns fan after The Drive, The Fumble, and losing their team; a Buffalo Sabre fan after Brett Hull was in the crease; a Buffalo Bill fan after the early 90's, a Pistons fan after The Steal, Vinnie and AD knocking heads, followed the next year by Isiah's mangled twisted ankle and Bill Laimbeer's phantom foul on Kareem; the Sacramento Kings fans after Game 6 in 2002 against the Lakers (and they are about to lose their team, too). The Toronto Maple Leafs fans after Kerry Fraser. And, I've already mentioned the Wings. So your evidence that the experience of being Red Wings fan is unique or special relative to other fan bases is to cite a bunch of other teams that also have had heart-breaking moments?  Setting that aside, I think your point is that the Red Wings have experienced more play-off heart-ache than any other (NHL? all pro sports?) team over the last 20 years, which makes it difficult to be a fan of the Red Wings. If so, fine - I made the following suggestion in my last post: Every other NHL team's fanbase would trade their team's success for the Red Wings, even with all of the heartache / play-off disappointment that goes with it. I believe that. I think virtually every other NHL team's fans would trade their teams success for that Red Wings', even at the cost of taking on the heartache you bemoan. So if it is so hard to be a Wings fan, why would others willingly trade their fandom experience for the Wings'? The answer, I think, is the enjoyment and pleasure associated with continued success and deep play-off runs and occational championships are more than worth the heartache that comes along with it when they don't win it all. (Frankly, if it isn't, then why would anyone be a fan of any team? No team wins every year.) To me, Red Wing fans complaining about the hardships they have to endure is analogous to someone who wins $200 M in the lottery complaining about the fact they have to pay $60 M in taxes. Yeah, you have to pay more in taxes than everyone else, but you also won more - far more - than you have to give up. Bitching about it comes across as whining to everyone else. Now compare this to the Colorado Avalanche. Quebec's owner runs the team into the ground, makes the franchise a joke, screws up the Eric Lindros draft pick, screws up the Eric Lindros trade, and is bailed out by the Flyers giving up way too much for Lindros, and combined with three straight #1 overall draft picks, he sells the team, it moves to Colorado, and in their FIRST SEASON as the Colorado Avalanche, they win the Stanley Cup. After, of course, Denver couldn't support an NHL team their first time around, and the Rockies moved to Jersey. Sounds to me like Quebec fans had it much tougher than Wing fans. That would suck balls. Avalache fans lucked into it, though. Good for them. I don't understand how that makes it bad to be a Red Wings' fan. As for investing time... Hockey is still a bit of a cult sport. In 2011, I am STILL hearing complaints from Wings fans across the nation about having problems finding the Wings on TV (Pay for Center Ice, but have the game blacked out because it's being shown on Versus). I don't think that Tigers fans or Lions fans have that problem. Firstly, I'd argue that is largely because the NHL isn't managed well. Second, the Wings are on Versus a lot because they have a large fan base and they are a strong team. The fact Versus isn't on every cable provider is not a compelling argument that it is especially hard to be a Red Wings fan or the league is screwing them. It is possible to watch games on-line and these sort of things (i.e. cable hang-ups) tend to be temporary in nature anyway, By the same token, I follow US Soccer. That's my badge of investing time. I've woken up at 1:30 am, 3:30 am, and 5:30 am to watch my soccer team live in the World Cup. I've watched them on Spanish speaking channels (which, in retrospect, is the preferred way of viewing them) because that's the only channel that would carry some of their qualifying games. Or had to find a bar that would carry the game. The US Soccer fans are certainly a cult, but in this one aspect, I absolutely have an investment in the team and more skin in the game than an NFL fan, and one that can't possibly be matched, (unless the fan is overseas). Has nothing to do with hockey or the article, but I admire your dedication to watching soccer. I wish I had that sort of dedication. My guess is soccer will likely become more mainstream in America over the next 20 years or so, such that this sort of effort won't be required. The NHL certainly has an agenda. They use the Wings (and Leafs and Rangers and Flyers and Bruins and Habs) to prop up other franchises). Sure - The original six markets are stable and are money makers. Most business models have more successful brands helping to prop up or otherwise support less successful brands. Gary Bettman has an investment and a legacy at stake regarding keeping Phoenix viable). Has little to nothing to do with the article. Or are you suggesting the Wings will get screwed by the officials this upcoming series? As I understand it, Pheonix is likely to move regardless of the outcome of these play-offs. He will do whatever it takes to keep Chicago interested in the NHL, and he will prop up Pittsburgh as long as Sidney Crosby is skating. And the Capitals, to a certain extent, too). It is not uncommon for sports leagues to promote its stars. Especially stars that resonate non-saturated markets (read: Detroit is saturated), or, specifically in the case of the NHL, resonate in Canada. Chicago is a major market so it will receive some attention from the league as well. MLB does this with Boston and NY. Between the heartache and the time investment, the thread is pretty clear. Officiating and league involvement screwing with the NBA and NHL a hell of a lot more than in the NFL or MLB, and furthermore, access to the team is more difficult in the NHL than in the NBA. I frankly don't understand what you are expressing here. The NHL has certainly interfered and made it more difficult on the Wings with their meddling agenda. Suck it Gary. Keep taking advantage of our fanbase. We're going to bury you in a shower of octopi when you are handing Nick another Stanley Cup. FWIW, I didn't think the article was about the NHL screwing over Detroit per se, but from my perspective much of the dialogue about that specific point seems to me to be based on the idea that rather than tying the league or Bettman to a specific claim of malfeasance, we will bury 'em in rope and argue there must be a knot in there. I don't find that compelling, but that is just me. Lots of people do seem to find it compelling, so it is quite possible I'm just missing the boat here. |
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Post by harlem on Apr 18, 2011 11:37:04 GMT -5
I find the whole "skin in the game" argument kind of silly. As much as the "die-hard" fan won't admit it, or refuses to see it, watching a game on TV or from the seats does not make you part of the team. You are a customer, and a valued one, but not a team member. You have no "skin in the game" just because you spent a couple hundred bucks on a jersey and a toy octopus. Watch the game and enjoy it if you want, but don't act like their failure is yours or their success is yours. Your name will not be on the cup, you will not get a share of the fame, no one will ask you to sign their pennant. Get over yourself. I don't go around acting like I invented Chicken McNuggets because I like to eat at McDonald's.
People in this country spend way too much time glorifying the accomplishments of others rather than making their own.
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Post by Cliff's Notes on Apr 18, 2011 13:29:17 GMT -5
I also own and wear clothing from some of my favorite restaurants, too. Taco Bell mmm mmm good.
I know I crossed over in my arguments and bounced around. So be it.
I don't think it's one thing that makes being a Red Wing fan unique; I think it's the combination. There ya go.
You see it as "whining" over taxes, I see it as complaining about outright theft. I don't think I'll convince you otherwise.
Maybe there's an inherent defensiveness and arrogance over being a Wings fan based on the websites I visit and the (opposing) fans I crossed. Because it's very rare to hear a fan admit that they wished they had the Red Wings success. It's been much more about cutting them down.
I wish we had an NHL where I didn't have to bitch about conspiracies and officiating that changes every 10 minutes depending on the score of the game. Again, I know they aren't perfect, but I have heard MLB and NFL officials admit they are wrong and apologize. I've never heard of the NHL admit to a mistake (either by an on-ice official or the league office), and in fact, they've been covering up scandals this past week!
I wish we had a system where I didn't have to stay up until 1:30 am to watch my favorite team play a very important game.
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